Transcript
Tai Tu Interview: March 3, 2018
Interviewers: E.J. Carter and Hannah Crummé
Translator: Thao Tu
E.J. Carter: Ok. Today is March 3rd, 2018. This is E.J. Carter and Hannah Crummé and we’re speaking with Tai Tu in Portland. Thanks first of all for agreeing to meet with us and speak to us.
Thao Tu: [Translates]
EC: And also translating for us today is Thao Tu.
Thao Tu: [Translates]
EC: So we heard something about your life when we talked to your son in January. But we are hoping to learn more details about it. Could you start maybe by telling us about your youth and childhood in Vietnam?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: After I finished high school I began teaching math at high school.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: After teaching math, physics, and chemistry for around six to seven years I had to join the army because the South Vietnamese government appealed youth to join the army at that time.
EC: And did you learn math and physics and those other subjects in college?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: No. I did not learn physics and math at any college at all. I learned math and physics in high school.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I began joining the South Vietnamese army on March 1966.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I stayed in the army from 1966 until 1975. From military candidate to captain.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: After 1975 event -- April 30, 1975 -- I was sent to prison. The [Prisoner of War] camp.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: So I spent almost eight years in the so called “Reeducation Camp.” But actually it is a POW camp.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: After that I had been waiting for leaving Vietnam for the US under the agreement between the Vietnamese government and the US government that allowed any officials who spent at least three years in the reeducation camp to leave Vietnam for the US under the special program.
[00:05:03]
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: After leaving Vietnam for the US we began a new life. Life had been turned upside down. We had children who had really good opportunities to go back to school, instead of having no school like we lived in Vietnam.
EC: I want to hear more about your life in Portland as well, but maybe we can ask you to talk a little bit more about your experiences in the army during the war? You were sent to the Central Highlands, is that right?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: So I will translate. After I finished military academy, I was sent to the Central Highlands. I stayed in the Central Highlands for the whole military career.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I was serving for the 23rd Infantry Division in the Central Highland. That is the infantry division that fought against the communists during the Vietnam War and it is also the last division that fought against the communists in the Central Highland and lost at the end of the war.
EC: And were you working with American military units?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: Before 1970 I worked with the American soldiers at the FSCC, Fire Support
Coordination Center.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: That includes artillery, air support, marine, and infantry.
EC: So you saw a lot of heavy fighting then?
Thao Tu: Yeah. [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: One of the American soldiers that worked with me, he was a university student in the US. And he was sent to Vietnam. When he left Vietnam for back to the US, I gave him two addresses; one is the military address and one is a civilian address.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
[00:10:05]
Thao Tu: So when I was relieved from the POW camp, early around 2 years after that I received a letter from Tom Hart -- Mr. Tom Hart from Massachusetts. He had sent a letter with a really brief note to me. I was so happy because I worked side by side with American soldiers. I hoped that during interview -- the interview for leaving Vietnam for the US -- the interview team could see that, so let me go.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: When I came to Portland, I went to Portland Community College to learn English up to Writing 150. After that I had to work. Because of working with many Vietnamese, we speak the native language, so it didn’t improve my English at all. This is the reason I cannot talk in English so well at this time.
EC: So when you read American accounts of the war, they sometimes describe -- especially in the Central Highlands -- they describe this kind of futile effort to conquer these hills, and then the hills are abandoned and a lot of the novels or memoirs of the Vietnam war from the American perspective describe this as kind of a futile process. Was that your experience?
Thao Tu: Can you explain a little bit about the futile process? Is it a very important point? What do you mean?
EC: The sense in these accounts is often that hills were taken at great human loss and then the soldiers retreated back to their bases. Then the North Vietnamese or the NLF are allowed to retake the same hills. So there is often this frustrating sense in memoirs and novels that all of this loss was for nothing. I’m wondering if that was the perception [ … ]
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: Of course I agree with you because the Central Highlands was such an important point during the Vietnam War. It’s had some [ … ] it looked like spider connection with Laos and Cambodia. North Vietnamese soldiers sneaked in from Laos, from Cambodia and try to control the Central Highlands.
EC: Could you describe some of your emotions while you were in the reeducation camp -- the POW camp?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
[00:15:05]
Thao Tu: First of all, they sent us to some area that was their secret operation center during the war. That was controlled by the North Vietnamese army, by the communist Army.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Officials from the South Vietnam army, we lived mainly in the city. We never dealt with the different climates in the jungle. So we were attacked by mosquitos and we got fever, malaria.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: So a lot of officials from the ARVN could not handle that situation and they passed away within one or two weeks of being in the jungle.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: They did not let us eat enough. Everyday we had to eat a sweet potato and one bowl of rice. Food for a baby, not for an adult.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: However, we had to work very hard. We had to cut trees to build houses. Also we had to cultivate sweet potatoes and cultivate rice on the rice fields.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: So after two years under the control of the regular communist army, they traded us for under the control of communist police force.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: So around 1980, police in the 8.30 -- I remember the camp that my father spent time [ … ] in Phu ? province, they had some doubts about my dad and they put me in the confinement connects. The container. They handcuffed me and also they put chains on my legs.
EC: Oh wow. For how long?
Tai Tu: [Translates]
Thao Tu: They handcuffed both of my hands and also put chains on my legs for over eight months.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: My family sent food and letters to me and they didn’t let me receive any food or letters from [my] family.
[00:20:01]
EC: Did you worry that you would never be released?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: Sometimes now I think back. I thought that at that time they would secretly kill me or execute me. Again for myself at that time I tried to resist for my dad, and they said that my dad was a revolutionary reactionist. They tried to do something by their law. And I didn’t know what kind of law that they applied but they told me something like that. [ … ] I do remember at that time I was eighteen years old.
EC: And you actually traveled to the province to try to visit him?
Thao Tu: Yeah I actually traveled from [ … ] now they’ve changed the name again -- probably around 200 miles up north from my hometown.
EC: But they wouldn’t let you in?
Thao Tu: They didn’t let me in, yeah. Because at that time, they put my dad in the confinement container.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: When I was sent to the prison, I was a captain. [Shows photo] This picture was taken when I was thirty-two years old. This is the last picture that I have. I think this is my dad’s military ID card.
EC: So that’s before going to the camp?
Thao Tu: Yes, before going to the camp.
EC: How did you feel when you were released?
Thao Tu: Let me verify? You asked him how did he feel when he was released from the confinement container or generally from the camp?
EC: From the camp itself.
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: I remember I was one of over 600 POW prisoners that was released. However, they kept me for awhile after they released the majority of them.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: They kept me behind the bar for four to five months after they released most of the 600 of them.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: They gave me only twenty Vietnamese dong to take the train to go home. I didn’t think that certain amount of money was enough for me to go home. At that time people need at least 200 dong to go home.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I was so happy that I went home and saw my wife and my two children again.
[Speaking for himself] Myself, I remember that day my dad came home with sandals, the North Vietnamese sandals. And also … [begins to cry]
Tai Tu: [Continues]
[00:25:29]
Hannah Crummé: It sounds like it was very difficult.
Thao Tu: I’m sorry.
HC: It would be a very tough thing.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I am sorry that I cannot keep in my mind my emotions.
So again, when I went home at that time, I was so happy to see my children and my wife. For myself, I remember that my dad came home with the North Vietnamese sandal that you very often see on the film and also they let him wear the old military uniform from the army. They didn’t care about that. They let POWs wear the green military uniform. After that I had to work for the corporate factory. But they paid us not enough money to earn a living.
EC: You were making sea salt, is that right?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: Yeah. I worked for the sea salt corporation, factory that made salt in my city.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: When I was a student after, everytime I passed the sea salt factory, I would count the people who worked over there. [They are] very hard working people and I felt sorry for them. But now I was doing the same thing like they did.
EC: Did you miss teaching?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: Of course I missed teaching. I remember when I was a teacher, I was a very nice and [respected] teacher. A lot of people, a lot of students, they liked me. And they still like me until now. Now they’ve become grandparents and they still have contact with me.
HC: That’s nice.
Thao Tu: Thank you for asking about that. He misses teaching. [Both laugh]
EC: What other jobs did you have after returning from the camp?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
[00:29:23]
Thao Tu: Probably I forgot how to explain the work [ … ] that my father worked for the construction company. So [ … ] After I worked for the sea salt corporate factory I worked for a company that built houses in town. I was a bricklayer worker. I know how to do that. He was red, you see? The bricklayer workers.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I worked very hard but I didn’t earn enough money to feed myself or help my family.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: After I was relieved from the camp every day I had to report at the local police station. And I had to keep on my diary every activity during the day.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Every time I decided to leave my hometown, I needed to go to the police station [ … ] I’m sorry [ … ] to get permission.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: [ … ] Again, if we lived over there, they would take him away. [ … ] The called him a secondary citizen.
EC: Is that when you decided to try to come to the United States?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: We were so happy to leave Vietnam for the US after the US congress passed a law to let us resettle in the US. Not only for myself to have a new life, but also for my children, for my whole family to have a new life in the US.
EC: And you initially applied for the ODP, the Orderly Departure Program, but that application was not successful? Is that right?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: First of all, my brother sponsored us to leave Vietnam for the US. However, my brother didn’t have enough income to do the financial support.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: My oldest brother has three children with a wife.
EC: Had he been in the army as well, your brother?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: My brother didn’t join the army. He joined the Vietnamese [ … ] Allied Force when he was fourteen years old. In history they call it Viet Minh. [ … ] Again, he joined the Vietnam resistance force to fight against the French when he was so young.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: So after nine years in the the Vietnam revolution force. He quit participating in that activity and he worked for US construction company in South Vietnam. [Shows E. J. and Hannah a dictionary entry] This is the Vietnamese Independence League. He joined the Vietnamese Independence League Force from 1945 to 1954.
EC: Do you think that there are things that the South Vietnamese government and the United States could have done differently regarding the war and the way it was carried out?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: Can you repeat your question one more time?
EC: I’m just wondering if there are things that the government of South Vietnam and the United States could have done differently in terms of carrying out the war. I guess another way to ask this could be, why do you think South Vietnam lost the war?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
[37.50]
Thao Tu: We were from the South. We fought against the communists because we didn’t want them to spread communism to the south.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: We got help and support from the US to fight against them. We didn’t want to lose freedom from the South.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: However, the North was so--what is the term?--they mean it. They tried to make the so called provisional South Vietnam revolution government in the South to shake hands with them to fight against the South Vietnam government. [39.37]
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Without US support, without US help, South Vietnam would lose the war, of course.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: North Vietnamese communist soldiers were supported by Red China and the former Soviet Union. So they had enough weapons, enough means to fight against South Vietnam’s government.
[00:40:35]
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Again, without support, without help from the US Army, South Vietnam could not fight against the Communists that were supported by the entirety of the Socialist system. That included Red China, former Soviet Union, and many countries in the eastern part of the world. For example, during the war, with US support, our artillery [would] shoot 100 heavy bullets towards one target. But at the end of the war, we [would] shoot only five instead of 100 to destroy one target.
EC: Moving over a little bit and talking now about your time in Portland, could you describe your first impressions of Portland after you arrived?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: So when I was on the airplane to Portland, I was asked by one American lady, she asked me where I would come. And I told her that I would come to the city of Portland. She told me that the city of Portland was a very nice city that had four different identical seasons during the year. So I like it. [Laughs]
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Of course, I could continue going to college at PCC, but I had to stop going to college. I had to work to support the family, especially [so] my two children [could] go to college.
EC: What kind of work did you do?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: First of all I was a teacher-aid at Vestal elementary school -- belonged to Portland Public Schools. I worked over there for six months.
[00:44:59]
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I got that job from the introduction of my “English as a second language” teacher at PCC. I showed my certificate from when I taught in Vietnam and Portland Public School district, they accepted me.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: One summer, I didn’t get any earning from the school district and I had to work for Foster Farm. Do you remember Foster Farm in North Portland?
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Not only working at Foster Farm, [but] I actually became an interpreter for many Vietnamese newcomers that worked for Foster Farm at that time.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: After I worked for Foster Farm for four years, I trained to work for Nike.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Not only working for Foster Farm, I also worked for a pizza company in North Portland before going to Nike.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I worked for Nike, totally twenty years.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I actually had retirement at a certain age, but I continued working for Nike for around eight and a half years after my retirement age.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I was a former worker at Nike.
EC: What kind of work did you do at Nike?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: I made air soles for shoes. Every shoe that belonged to Nike that had the bottom base, I was responsible to pump air into that certain area.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Nike will train for the mold to Indonesia, Vietnam, or China to make shoes over there. That was many countries with very cheap labor.
[00:49:11]
EC: So besides the language barrier, have there been other challenges from moving to the United States?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: I remember when I first came to the United States, I could use my resource of English that I learned in high school. Again, in my high school I learned dual language; French and English. I remember at that time I was doing translation for a family too.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Now I could not remember.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: It’s important to tell you that with the language, the more we talk the more we remember, the more we improve the language. Without talking, without contacting the native people, we lose English.
EC: Were there organizations that helped you adapt to life here in Portland when you first arrived?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: The USCC. I remember the United States Catholic Conference helped us to adapt our lives in the US.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I think IRCO and USCC are the same, right? International Refugee of Oregon at that time? Tried to adapt life. We were sent to Northeast Sandy and NE 11th to learn how to apply for a job, learn how to use a coupon to go to the store, and how to report anything unusual in our lives with the police. Too many things to learn at that time [Laughs].
EC: Any other organizations that you’ve participated in or that have been a meaningful part of life here?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: I remember I joined an organization that was formed by former South Vietnamese officers and soldiers who came here very early after the war and we formed an association. We called it “Former South Vietnamese Soldier Association.”
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I remember, I paid my organization due $5 a month at that time.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: We used that organization due to buy rice, fish sauce, ramen, and noodles for newcomers who were former officers like us.
EC: And in the organization would you talk about your experiences in the war? Or did people not like to talk about it?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: Sometimes we sat down next to each other and we talked about our experiences during the war and after the war, especially during the time that they put us in the POW camps.
[00:55:00]
EC: And are those painful memories for many people?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: Yes. It is so painful of a memory.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: I never saw the communists shoot or execute any POW prisoner. But I was told that if they get mad, or if somebody did something against their will, they would shoot them.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Again, when they found something that they count wrong about me and they put me in the confinement cell, if they decided to do something heavier they may have shot me at that time.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: They count prisoners as less than human. Like animals.
EC: Thinking about young people in Portland, in the Vietnamese American community, how would you compare their lives with yours growing up in Vietnam?
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: If you ask me about that, I would say that this is heaven and that is [ … ] hell. I could not find the word sorry.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Not only us, but also our children, our grandchildren have a new life. They have an opportunity to pursue whatever is correct for their life.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Every Independence Day, July 4th, I went to LA to have a teacher-student reunion. So I met a lot of students who I taught when I was young.
EC: Oh wow. That’s nice.
Thao Tu: Every year. He has been doing that for maybe twenty times.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Now they’ve become grandparents. [Laughs]
Tai Tu: [Continues]
[00:59:24]
Thao Tu: I also have reunion with many cadets that spent time in the military academy. I met them in … is it in San Jose? … every year or every two years I went to Santana to meet former military cadets.
Tai Tu: [Continues]
Thao Tu: Here, whenever we have big events like Veterans Day or the sorrowful date of April 30th or New Years I often wear an old uniform to join the event. Have you ever seen him at Tet? I didn’t see both of you at Tet! Did you see me?
HC: I didn’t see you. But we went there and it was great! Thank you for inviting us. That was really lovely.
Thao Tu: Yeah! [Laughs] I looked over and I yelled your name but I didn’t see you.
HC: Yeah. We loved it. It was great. It was very colorful. And all the entertainment was really lovely and we thought the booths with all the information were really great. It was a really good event.
Thao Tu: Thank you for your comment.
HC: Thank you for having us. It was great.
EC: Do you have any final thoughts to share with us? I think we’ve come to the end of the interview.
Thao Tu: [Translates]
Tai Tu: [Answers]
Thao Tu: I’m very happy to say that this was a really nice process to meet both of you and to be interviewed today.
EC: Thank you. It was a pleasure to meet you too.
HC: Thank you very much for speaking to us. It was a lot of really good information.
[01:02:12]