Azen Jaffe: Hello, my name is Azen Jaffe. I am with Hannah Crummé and we are speaking with Minh Pham at the Cascade Park Community Library on September 27, 2019. Thank you for being with us, first of all. Could you start by introducing yourself and telling me a little bit about...
Minh Pham: My name is Minh Pham and I came to the United States about thirty years ago. I mainly lived in Oregon and recently in Washington, Southwest Washington, Vancouver. I am involved in a lot of different community projects around. It is nice to talk to you.
Hannah Crummé: Thank you for talking to us.
AJ: You came to the United States thirty years ago -- where were you living before that?
MP: I escaped from Vietnam on a boat when I was about sixteen. I went to Malaysia. I lived in a refugee camp for about ten months. Then I got flown to Springfield, Oregon. I lived in Springfield, Oregon and went to high school at Springfield High. That is where I was thirty five years ago.
AJ: Did you come with your family?
MP: I came by myself at that time. My father and my brother were already in Eugene, Oregon.
HC: Is that why you went to Springfield?
MP: Yes, they left five years after the war. They were sponsored by a Mennonite Church down in Eugene. That was the organization supporting our family forty years ago. I came over and they also helped me out.
HC: Did any of the rest of your family come after you?
MP: Yes, up until 1990 we were able to bring the rest of my family. I have four sisters and my mom. They are all here. Now they are scattered in a lot of different places, one in Alabama, one in Hawaii, one in Eugene, and three of us here up here in the Portland area.
AJ: But you were all in Springfield at first?
MP: Yes, we all went to Springfield High School.
HC: When did you leave Springfield?
MP: I went to Oregon State [University] after I graduated Springfield High School in 1988.
HC: In Corvallis?
MP: In Corvallis.
HC: Did you come to Portland after that?
MP: Yes, actually I worked for Hewlett-Packard down in Corvallis. Then I moved up here for the job because they changed my project, so I moved up here to the Portland area. I work for Hewlett-Packard in Vancouver and my brother lives in Portland.
AJ: Can you talk a bit about what it was like to move to Springfield. What was that change like?
MP: It was quite the experience, I did not know any of the language and I was young. I left Vietnam, it was a very isolated country back then. I was in a refugee camp, so I saw a lot of Vietnamese people -- people I did not know, but I still felt okay. When I left the camp they flew me on an airline with a bunch of minors, all of us did not have an adult with us. We flew from Malaysia to Hong Kong, then from Hong Kong we landed in San Francisco. At that time each of us got split up. We went all over the country. I ended up going to Springfield. I did not even know where that was, it was very -- I was sitting there on an airplane by myself and I flew into Eugene, a small airport with no terminal, you had to walk in. I landed down there and looked around and there was nobody there [laughs]. It looked very quiet, a little scary. I did not know the language. The group of Mennonite church people came out and my father came out. There were no Vietnamese there at that time. It is a quiet, quiet experience when you are landing on different soil in a faraway place.
[00:05:13]
AJ: And you had not seen your father for some time, right?
MP: About five years. That is where I started my life here in the United States.
HC: What was it like to re-encounter your father and your brother?
MP: My brother was a little more anxious to see me, we were teenagers and were split when I was probably eight or nine and he was eleven. He really wanted to have me around here. It was good to see each other again, but then you miss the rest of the family. So it was hard, very hard -- especially for such a young age.
HC: What was Springfield High School like?
MP: At Springfield High School... They had great teachers, very supportive. They even hired a full time ESL teacher for me, I was the first one who did not know how to speak the language and they created a whole ESL program at that high school. Me and another student from mainland China, so there were only two of us there. The teachers were amazing, they were very supportive- - many, many of them. That is how I got through school. Most of the kids were very nice, even though I did not speak English to them. Slowly, after the first year I learned the language and I slowly made friends.
AJ: Were there other challenges in that early period besides learning the language?
MP: I think the challenge was that it was a very different environment from where I grew up. I grew up in Saigon, in a big city and there were a lot of people. Here everybody is busy, everybody goes to work and you do not have a lot of people to interact with. It is a different culture, different environment. I think adjusting to the new life took a little time in the beginning. The language and cold weather were the things that were very different.
HC: What month did you come here?
MP: I came in August.
HC: So it was warm initially?
MP: Yes. It was nice, then winter came.
HC: What were your father and brother doing here when you arrived?
MP: My father was a mechanic, he worked for Volkswagen. He was a mechanic before, he worked for the South Vietnamese Army which was backed by the United States. He worked as a mechanic in the system. He came here, took classes at Lane Community College, then he came back and became a mechanic again… Worked for that. My brother was in the same high school. When I came here he had actually just finished high school so he went to Oregon State. I followed him to Oregon State.
AJ: So you were in Springfield until you went to Oregon State?
MP: Yes.
[00:09:09]
HC: What led you to go to Oregon State, or what led your brother to go to Oregon State?
MP: I think a lot of us did not know. We thought Oregon State was the only school. A lot of us are good at math, but the language is new to us, so we were like "Okay, maybe we will go into technical fields." Engineering seemed to be the field that we were actually able to finish. So a lot of early Vietnamese went to Oregon State and they just focused on engineering because that is where our strength is -- math, trying to avoid the language, writing or speech or anything like that. Most of the first generation young Vietnamese, I think a lot of them became engineers. They worked for Boeing and for different technical fields. That was kind of like the role model for us to go there. We did not have a lot of exposure to different colleges. Springfield was very isolated, especially for first generation immigrants. My father did not know a lot about college and stuff like that. We very much just got a little bit of information from the teachers and from the career counselors. A lot of the Vietnamese were already in college at that time and I think a majority of them went to Oregon State. That is how I ended up at Oregon State, close to home.
HC: How was it different at Oregon State and Springfield? Was it different being in college?
MP: Yes, actually during my time in high school, in the summer, there was a program at UO. I do not know if you have ever heard of it? It is called Upward Bound. It helped a lot of immigrants in college. In the summer we went to UO and they fed us and let us sleep there. That helped me with the language in the summer. At the time, I think the United States had a lot of resources to do that. That is why I knew Oregon State and University of Portland in the Springfield area. Oregon State is smaller and more focused. All you do is school, whatever the activity is just related to school. You do not play games or anything. At night you go inside the school. There is nothing outside which is very good. Compared to the Eugene and Springfield areas, which are a lot bigger cities. I think that helped a lot, it seems that it made you focus more. We spent most of our time in school.
HC: What year did you go there?
MP: I went there in 1988 and I graduated in 1993. It took about four and half years to finish. In the extra half year you just study a little more.
HC: Was there a Vietnamese community there? Did you join a Vietnamese community when you were there?
MP: There is the Vietnamese Student Association, we called it the VSA. I was one the presidents of the group one year, in 1992. We were the first generation immigrants. We were the younger ones in college so we collected groups together. We still had a lot of cultural knowledge of the old Vietnamese culture. We collected groups together to celebrate the Lunar New Year. We put it together every year. That group was brought together to help us get through the college years. It was very helpful. There were not many communities outside college in that area. We were mostly students, we had probably about a hundred Vietnamese students at the time.
AJ: What are some of your favorite memories from your time at OSU?
MP: [Laughing] I think probably the good times were -- we enjoyed playing volleyball at night on Friday night. Girls and boys would go out to the gym and play. I think that was probably the most enjoyable time. The group put together -- with very little resources -- we put the Lunar New Year celebration together for the whole community around -- those sorts of activities. Besides that, college work [laughs]. So, that was my time.
HC: Where did the Lunar New Year take place?
MP: Inside the student union. We were in a ballroom there. That is where we did it every year. Everybody got together and prepared that stuff.
[00:15:06]
AJ: What did you do after graduating?
MP: After graduation I went to work for Hewlett-Packard. First, I did not know -- at that time there were not any internships or anything. All of the engineers except for the civil engineers did not have the internship where students could go out and do work for electrical and computer. We basically learned the theory and it is very hard to go out and find a job. So I went and worked as a technician repairing printers and computer laptops. Slowly, there was a deviation towards actually making computers inside Hewlett-Packard at that time. Then I got a job as an engineer there, and started there the rest of my life in that field.
HC: What was it like living in Corvallis, not as a member of the university?
MP: I was a little lonely, there was no Vietnamese restaurant there, so there was no food. Every time you wanted to get some Asian food in order to cook or something there was only a small Korean store there and we would go. But I mean at that time, I was mainly focused on learning in my career to gain experience. I had just gotten married at that time. I mainly focused on getting my career path going and getting experience before I made a choice.
HC: How did you meet your wife?
MP: I have a friend, she works with my wife now. My wife is from the Bay Area. It was through a friend that we met. She had just come from Vietnam. Her father also served in the South Vietnamese Army and he left and she was left behind, so she just came through the ODP (Orderly Departure Program) -- I do not know if you have heard of it? -- program which allowed families to reunite, that is how she got here. We got married, we have two kids now, fourteen and nine.
HC: That must be fun.
MP: Yeah.
HC: While you were living in Corvallis, did you ever encounter anything that made you feel unwelcome?
MP: That was more rare, but either at work or on the street. I think one time at work when I spoke -- It is rare to see Vietnamese in the area. I had met one person at work.When we were at work and I would speak Vietnamese I would speak very quiet, not that loud. Some people did not want that, did not want me to speak Vietnamese. There was another person, he is American and he served in the army, he heard that and he told me to stop. I did not actually say anything, but to me it is not a big issue. It is just some people... they do not know how to handle that. For me, I am actually moving way higher, so a lot of those sort of things do not actually bother me. It is just a very rare occasion, but there are always good people on the other side who take over that and I do not actually have to deal with that. But it just happened, if I said that nothing happened, that is probably not true. There are small cases like that, but it is very rare. I work well with people and all people can see that, so there are always a lot more good people around. To me, as a society there is more of that, but it should not be mainstream or anything like that. I go on and focus on my job, continue to be as productive as I can.
HC: When did your job move to Portland?
MP: I moved here, up to Vancouver, in 2003.
AJ: So, from Corvallis to Vancouver in 2003?
MP: Yes, yes. They wanted me to move to Houston but I flew down there and I did not like it. I have family up here, so I wanted to stay in the area. So, I moved up here to Vancouver.
HC: What didn't you like about Houston?
MP: Houston is warmer, I liked that but it seemed that I got used to the landscape here and the landscape is very flat there. It is also a little hot in the summer too. I think mostly my connections with people -- I have a lot of friends, a lot of family here, so that is why I did not want to go.
[00:20:51]
AJ: You said your wife had immigrated to the United States a little later than you had, right?
MP: Yes, she came in 1993-4, something like that.
AJ: Do you think her experience adjusting to the United States was different from yours?
MP: I think most of the -- Yeah, their experience was quite different. They had more support and they had a bigger community. When I came, we were very much alone. At that time I think the mood of the country, right after the war, was very different. Now, they have an easier time than us. To me it seems -- hopefully they do not take it for granted but they have a lot more flexibility, a lot more resources than us. We were kind of the first group. I think the experience at that time [was shaped] not only by resources but also the feeling of leaving the country at that time -- if you escaped the country when you were small -- you would feel a bit of anger. It took me a bit of time to get through that and become okay. I guess it took about three years to get through that.
HC: How did you get through it?
MP: I think it is -- once you get submerged in your new life, college, preparing for the SAT, and a lot more homework and making your life and start having a little more celebrations… to go trick-or-treating -- you know all of that -- holidays -- again, you are a little better. You move on. For the first three years it is a little harder, it feels very strange. But after three years, I think slowly then overtime it becomes just an experience in your life but you do not pay a lot of attention to that.
HC: I am interested in that feeling of anger, or what is it? Is it nostalgia for the old country? Is it anger at having to go? In that period of three years when you were recovering, what were your feelings?
MP: I was young, I did not know about politics. I did not see that war, but suddenly you had to sneak out and it was very dangerous. We escaped on a boat and the engine just stopped working after a day or two in the ocean. We thought we all would die, but we made it. You came and you were just like "Okay." It seemed like you had been kicked out of your land and you were angry. I was young and I did not like whoever was running the country and making my mom make that choice to go throw me on the boat. I had to leave her there. Even though I survived, a lot of people did not survive. When I got here, that feeling was not really nice… and [at] that young age.
[00:24:44]
HC: How did your parents decide to send you at that time?
MP: During that time I was fifteen. At that time they started fighting over in Cambodia -- and you heard about the story in Cambodia -- a lot of young men were sent to Cambodia fighting over the Khmer Rouge and a lot of them did not make it home. I was about the age they started getting -- you know, about sixteen, seventeen -- and my mom just worried that in a year or two they would draft me and send me over there too. My brother already left, so I was the only boy left behind. Either, I go to see my brother, have a better life, make a change -- if I make it I will have a better life, if I do not make it… Either I stay there and go to the war or I die in the ocean. That is that story. My mom had to make a hard choice. I think it was very tough on her, for me I do not know anything except to do what she says. I think as a mother -- now I am grown up and I have kids, I see that. I could not imagine that -- My son is almost fifteen now. I could not imagine letting him do something like that! Throw him in the Pacific Ocean on a small boat and tell him to cross that ocean and see the Atlantic on the other side. I do not think we could ever actually make that choice. At that time, mothers and fathers -- parents had to make that choice… You see the situation in the country, in wars, is not as it is here now.
HC: Tell us a little bit about parenting now that you are a parent. How has it been to parent here in Oregon, or in Vancouver?
MP: In Vancouver, the community I live in is very nice. A lot of them used to work for HP around here. We know a lot of them. On this side of Vancouver it is very nice. The children are very good. I feel it is very safe for them. I try my best to raise them so they can become more productive to society. The only trade off is -- you know, I have gone through a lot in my life, as I have been telling you, so I have gained a lot of courage through my life. I do not want them to have to go through that to get the experience by going through that. Sometimes I want them to get some of that experience, but I think this is a very good environment for them to grow up.
HC: How has their experience been in public school -- are they in public school?
MP: They are in public school.
HC: How has the experience been?
MP: They have a lot of friends. Very much, they are just like normal kids. The only thing was -- The reason I am involved in the Vietnamese community -- is even though they are born here they know themselves being born in Southwest Washington. Because of their appearance, they do not look like ‘real Americans.’ I always tell them, "You are part of this community, this country." I am trying to -- sometimes they get confused. I am Vietnamese but I have to tell them that "This is part of you, you have this identity." I am working with them to try to let them understand. My son is born here, and they are going to think everybody is born here. But their appearance may be different. It is unique to this country, we have many different generations of immigrants here. I told them and slowly they started to grow up and accept that. Part of the Vietnamese community lets them have that identity. They get confused. Even with different backgrounds everyone contributes to this community. I have seen that in many different kids -- we have many different younger kids now in the community. I think that the reason we have the community here is to let them know that there is a community here.
[00:30:01]
AJ: That is a good segue. Could you tell us about the Vietnamese community in Clark County, and your involvement?
MP: Yes, I moved up here about fifteen years ago. I moved up here then I started having my kids. So I was busy with work and kids. Then once I had kids -- you start thinking about your heritage, you want your kid to see your culture, your background -- I started donating money to the community. They get donations and they host the Lunar New Year every year. I started giving them money. I just said if you need any help I will help. I found out that there are only two elderly people working on that and one younger college student, she was helping out. I saw that and I saw they needed help. I started getting involved about seven years ago now already. I was the president for two terms, four years, and then nobody was running it so I had to come back and help them run it again. In the last seven years, we have had a lot more of the younger generation coming in and helping out. We are involved in many different activities outside of just the community. The community now, we put together dinner for the elderly -- Thanksgiving dinner. We create different projects for younger students, high schools and middle schools, to come in and help put. Just to get them involved in the community. I am seeing that, and it is growing. In the Vietnamese community now, the members are younger. I think it has come a little more into the mainstream in the community now.
AJ: Is that something that your children are interested in? Is it something they relate to?
MP: Yes, actually that is the reason I am doing that. They feel with the community -- like I said, they were born here and now they know the community. They wear t-shirts with the logo, they know exactly which group they belong to. That gives them a little more of the identity of the Vietnamese side. We have a couple big events like Lunar New Year and then the Moon Festival, those two. We have the local mayor and different officials come in, the kids come out and they train them on how to be serving the community. Every time we have the event they can not wait. Which I think is very good, I did not get that chance, so that is why I am doing this too. Just one part of non-profit organizations in the community.
HC: Are there other structures in Clark Country or in Vancouver that bring that Vietnamese community together, outside of the Vietnamese Community Organization?
MP: There are Vietnamese churches, there is Vietnamese Buddhist Temple, there are two in Vancouver then a couple of Christian Churches around. They are more religious, we are more community-based. We focus more on the cultural and the social aspects, taking care of elders and providing. In the Vietnamese community we have younger generations, a lot of engineers, doctors, a lot of kids who want to be in that field and they have someone to mentor them. That support, that is very different from the religious organizations around.
[00:34:31]
AJ: Can you tell me a bit about the dinner for the elders that you mentioned?
MP: We just started doing that about, I think it was about four years ago. Every Thanksgiving and close to Christmas. A lot of them migrated here and their kids are getting older and they move to different parts of the country, very far away, so they are lonely. We rent a room in the YMCA here and we put together a dinner and they come. It keeps them company and gives them something so that they still feel a part of the family, the community. It seems very emotional for a lot of them. We feel they, the younger generation, want to serve more and this helps both the younger people who want to get involved and the elders have the place so they can feel good during that season of the year. We tried that and it seemed to work so we kept doing it and now we do it every year.
AJ: Sounds like a really nice event.
MP: Yes.
HC: Do your siblings and parents still live around here?
MP: My mom lives with my sister down in Eugene. My brothers are all in Portland and I have one sister here in Vancouver.
HC: Are they involved in the Vietnamese community?
MP: They are not involved much compared to me, I am a little more socially active [laughs]. I have a little more leadership skills and the community needs me so I feel like I need to do something. I did have a lot of help throughout my life so now I want to give back to the public.
AJ: Were you with the VNCC in 2009?
MP: I was not there, but I heard about the forum there. I did talk to one of the people who organized that, she is a PhD student now and she may be coming back here soon. She is trying to start getting the younger Vietnamese to get involved more, to figure out how to make it work. She did have some challenges to get that to work. That is the person who I said, when I came out and I tried to help the community, she was the one there trying to organize things. I am the one that actually came right after that to regroup the community. The community now is in much better shape.
AJ: Great. Do your children speak Vietnamese?
MP: Yes, both of them speak Vietnamese fluently. They speak both languages fluently. The younger girl listens more to movies and stuff like that in Vietnamese. The boy, he is in the ninth grade now, so he has been taking Vietnamese classes at the Vietnamese school in Portland until last year. In that grade he stopped but the girl is still doing that. At a young age they spoke Vietnamese but I am a little worried that when he gets older he will become too lazy to speak Vietnamese. I tell him that it is important. Any language you learn as a second language is better.
AJ: Why is it important to you?
MP: It is that he has that strength, that he can speak two languages. It is the language that his mother speaks and I think it is very important. I told him, especially the younger one, that if you are embarrassed when you speak Vietnamese to other people the school must know. There are a lot of kids now, especially in Vancouver, they speak Spanish, they speak Russian here. I told him that a language is just that, a language, it helps you communicate. I think for them, the more you know the better. If you have somebody at home to practice the language with, I think it is a plus. I have friends from France. A lot of them regret that they did not speak French with them. I think now the world is more connected, people migrate and the kids have the chance to learn a language. For them to learn the language, and when a parent can help them to do that it is just much better. They can switch between languages automatically, it took me many years to do that but it is natural for them. I think the important thing for them is that they have the Vietnamese identity in them, so they know the language and it makes them stronger to do that. I think that is the challenge. I am trying to convince them that and I think that is a challenge. I think the boy now -- can read and he understands. That is my goal.
[00:41:01]
HC: You said they go to the Vietnamese school in Portland. Are there many resources that you have to go to Portland for?
MP: I think, only the Vietnamese school right now, because that is the only place. I actually help run the school too. I am in charge of our teaching department there. I think that is the only resource we go there for. We have about five hundred kids there, so that is a lot.
AJ: Is that Van Lang?
MP: Yeah, Van Lang. About four hundred something this year.
AJ: Are you involved in any other religious organizations?
MP: I am not involved in religions at all. I am involved in CMAC, it is the Community Military Appreciation Committee, which actually supports service families. I am involved in that. That is where I went to a meeting this morning. I am on the board. It is mostly run by veterans. They do a Veteran's Day parade and Memorial Day. I am involved with them doing that, helping with the committee. Our community, we got here because of involvement in the military so this is part of our connection. That group knows us, they know the Vietnamese community. They wanted me to be involved in that, so that is why I am doing that.
AJ: What does your wife do?
MP: She works as a -- There is a company making sticker boards and she is working at that company. There is a company in Vancouver doing that. That is what she did in California so when she got here she did that.
AJ: I also wanted to ask -- you mentioned earlier that there was maybe some resentment when you first arrived because you were Vietnamese and because of the war. Is that something that you felt when you immigrated here?
MP: Yes, there was a whole atmosphere at that time, even people here in the community. It is not a pretty thing, that is why war is not good, but you know -- You become affected by that, then somehow that thing affects your life at such a young age and you feel that something caused this and somebody was involved in that -- causing me to be here. I was just sent to a place where I did not know how to live, the language, I did not even know the food. Everything was new and strange to me. It was basically just at a young age and you somehow get affected by something that puts you out of your normal teenage life. That made you deal with the world at a very young age. I think a lot of Vietnamese -- When I speak about my generation who are successful now here, they work for different agencies in the United States and different companies. They all have the same feeling, but that is actually what drives them to work harder and that is how they succeed. For a lot of us, we did not know the language and within four years we had to learn that language and we had to go to college. When you are looking back, that was amazing, but what is driving that? Maybe that was what was driving all of the first generation immigrants in the United States, even long ago. I think that is why they say "the first generation always succeeds," because what is driving that is something in there. I think it made us work a little harder and be more focused.
[00:45:40]
HC: We did not actually ask that much about your career. Is there anything more you want to tell us about your career?
MP: I have been an engineer most of my life for Hewlett-Packard (HP). I was with Cisco. Mostly I work on computers. I am a software engineer working on computers. For the last twenty-five years or so.
HC: Do you enjoy it?
MP: I am still able to do my job, that is good [laughs]. I think computers are -- everyday is a different problem. It is not the same problem everyday, everyday is a challenge. I just make it something I want to tackle everyday and it makes my day go by very quickly. Actually, we work on different projects every year. One project takes about a year, year and half to get done. I am working on the data center servers, making big computers for data centers. I just take it everyday, a different problem, there are so many problems. You try to be a problem solver and that makes everyday different problems, so you do not get bored. But sometimes it gets you tired too [laughs]! I am still able to do that, which is a good thing.
HC: What do your kids want to do?
MP: They do not want to be engineers [laughing]. They do not want to sit in front of a computer all day. The girl may become a children's doctor or something. They want to be away from the technical field. That is my feeling with the older boy too. He will maybe do something different. We chose technical engineering because that had less to do with English and more with math and science. That was what we were able to get done with school.
HC: Azen, any more questions?
AJ: I do not think I have any more questions. Is there anything else you want to talk about?
MP: I just want to tell you the experience, that through the thirty five years already, from the beginning to here where I am at. I have observed that -- and maybe this is good for you to know -- I came through the refugee camp and normally the process is that they will bring the people to a third country like the Philippines, Malaysia or Indonesia to learn the language. I was young, I was a minor at that time, so they brought me all the way directly from the camp to the United States then put me in the whole system. I was able to go through the whole system. Looking back there was a lot of support in the system for immigrants. When I got here -- somebody designed this -- they put me in there, so I was submerged in the system learning the language and then able to finish in four years and go to college. But then in the long way there were a lot of community churches I told you -- Mennonite Churches-- different people in the community, in the work area, they helped me along the way. First, I always had people to help me, even my career at work, there were always people there. A lot of good people along the way. That system, somebody must have thought about that, and it actually worked. First, it helped immigrants to become more productive in society and to have a way to actually pay it back. Then also, it brought the good out of people and it made the whole country stronger. Hopefully my experience going through this will help. It took thirty years to see this, so you see what works and we need to continue doing that, applying it to different generations of different immigrants coming in. It requires the immigrant to do hard work but also the support in the society and the system, different non-profit organizations -- that will help the newcomers to be productive in the community and make the country stronger. That is my experience.
[00:50:54]
HC: That is great.
AJ: With that experience in mind, do you have any thoughts about the current immigration system?
MP: Right now, what I observe is that in my time, the number of immigrants was less than now. Now there are a lot more immigrants, so that is why there are limited resources and that is why we have to fight for different projects. I think this is where it becomes an issue, at my time the number of immigrants was small and the resources were there to support them. I think the resources are very -- the population has grown. We demand more now and life now we need other things. That has become the challenge, I think what worked in the past will probably work for other people. If similar support is still there and those who are willing to work, they will become able to go through the process and become productive and will be able to pay back the society.
AJ: Thank you very much for speaking with us.
HC: Thank you.
AJ: This has been Azen Jaffe and Hannah Crumme interviewing Minh Pham on September 27, 2019.
[00:52:36]
